Primal Endurance Podcast

Welcome to The Primal Endurance Podcast, where we challenge the ineffective, overly stressful conventional approach to endurance training and provide a refreshing, sensible, healthy, fun alternative. Going primal frees you from carbohydrate dependency and turns you into a fat burning beast! Enjoy interviews from elite athletes, coaches, authors and scientists on the cutting edge of endurance training and performance.
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Primal Endurance Podcast




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Aug 10, 2018

By popular demand, Andre is back on the show! This engaging chap from Australia generated great accolades on his first podcast appearance, so Brad and Dr. Lindsay Taylor catch up with him again to talk about his life coaching strategies. Yes, this stuff has a direct and important application to your endurance goals and overall happiness and satisfaction. Andre describes his “Wheel of Life” program (you can download the wheel at, where you rank assorted lifestyle categories in order of importance, and also rank them in order of how well you are doing in each one. For example, if you rank your health high in priority but low in compliance, you identify critical areas to improve and reprioritize. 

Andre shares his own journey of becoming consumed by corporate life and falling so far out of balance that he destroyed his mental and physical health. It’s been a long road back to his existence today as a very popular endurance and life coach, as well as an elite age group triathlete. Andre is always full of levity and memorable aphorisms, so enjoy this show and consider checking out the Wheel of Life exercise as a great starting point for personal growth. Coaches: never ask “why?” for that’s a judging question. Instead, say something more open and nurturing such as, “tell me more.”

Andre talks about the Wheel of Life, his coaching tool. When one tries this assessment online,  the result is a good visual of the portions of your life.  [00:00:44] 

As part of his coaching technique, Andre uses the Wheel of Life  to help you analyze the balance in your life.  From there is can be used to look at your fitness. You then examine the results and look at what you feel about certain aspects of those results. [00:08:13] 

So after you gather this information, what are you, the coach, looking for? [00:12:31] 

Brad asks: What are the identified forces that pushed you off balance? His whole identity was totally wrapped up in being an executive; all about rank and position in the world. All about me. [00:24:25] 

This frantic position he found himself in was reflective of our society. We are searching for recognition from our peers and finding a sense of self importance.  [00:28:42] 

Often when you are involved in competitive activities is when you most need this help.  If you had a coach like this, you might very well have refuted the advice such as we are discussing here. [00:33:44] 

In coaching, we don't need to ask the questions because down deep everyone knows the answers. [00:34:59] 

Ask your partner to rate you on the Wheel of Life. [00:38:36] 

Listen to Andre podcast number 1. Go to Podcast no. 153

Andre Obradovic 

Wheel of Life: Free online assessment of the balance in your life.

International Coaching Federation



We are all searching for recognition from our peers and finding a sense of self-importance. (Brad Kearns)

How are the things you are doing contributing to your health, your future, and your family? (Andre Obradovic)

People don’t ask themselves those questions.  They know the answers and they would have to be more motivated. (Lindsay Taylor)

Aug 3, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results

Dave Reed from the UK has been really working with the book since January and has adopted primal diet, MAF training and now is fat adapted.  He has been racing but finds his performance has dipped.  Would going MAF since January have caused a dip in my performance with the increased benefit being seen after a long period on this training or could it be some other factor? [00:01:16] 

Dave also inquires about MSP (maximum sustained power) training with the 4-3-2-2-1 (reps) format described in the book. This is a format that can vary among individuals who are working toward building with those high-quality sets.  [00:06:00] 

Kenny is a slow but committed triathlete and asks about drinking carbonated water. Is it okay? Also, why does he have trouble losing weight? [00:17:00] 

Brian is asking: Why does my MAF time improve so much faster on a bike than when I'm running? [00:20:18] 

A second question is how to respond to the folks who still think one should use carbs for high performance. [00:22:34]

Shannon has many questions about counting macronutrients.  There is no fat minimum. She is worried about going overboard on carbs. [00:32:19] 

Shannon is also asking about how to manage cravings and appetite. [00:39:47] 



  • An athlete who eats a low-carb/high-fat diet can, indeed, alter the metabolic fuel source they use during exercise and recovery in a different manner than previously believed possible and perform in a different manner than previously believed possible.
  • When you are counting macronutrients, there is NO fat minimum.
  • More protein consumption doesn’t always mean more muscle mass.
  • Sugar cravings in the evening are a sign that your ego is deflated! (Chris Kelly)


Brownlee Brothers: These well-known triathletes went viral when the one brother carried an ailing brother over the finish line at the World Triathlete Championships in Mexico. Brad mentions their diet is questionable.

FASTER Study: This study out of the University of Connecticut was aimed at discovering the role diet plays in how our bodies metabolize fat vs. carbohydrate during exercise.

Johnny G: This South African, a fitness visionary, created the Spinning movement. He also road in the Race Across America

Andre Obradiovic: He is one of the country’s leading coaches. Listen to Brad’s postcast with him: “Don’t Be A Muppet, Be a Powerful Fat-Burning Beast”

RAAM: The world’s toughest bicycle race.  Next one is June 2019!!

Lindsay Taylor: Listen to her podcast with Nourish Balance Thrive discussing brain training for the primal Keto endurance athlete.

Luis Villasenor: Everything you want to know bout the ketogenic diet is here.

Simon Whitfield: Look at his YouTube of the exciting finish in Olympic Gold Medal Race


Jul 27, 2018

Brad covers some very thoughtful Q&A, including where weights might fit into the seemingly rigid guidelines and how Primal Endurance differs from Primal Blueprint Fitness guidelines. He looks at the possibility of over-consuming fat and possibly compromising fat loss goals. Brad's super duper awesome cure for plantar fasciitis, how MAF might require you to slow down to a fast walk in the name of rebuilding your broken down body. How to integrate carbs into peak performance efforts and do they cause any trouble? More great stuff along these lines, thanks for the great questions, enjoy the show!

Kevin asks about lifting weights. Please explain the Primal Endurance rules on this activity. Why are you so tough on strength training? [00:01:34] 

Tori wants to know about what can she do after surgery for ACL regarding recovery.  What can she do about her diet since she won't be able to train as she has the past ten years? [00:06:01] 

Olivia has a wonderful testimonial regarding healthy eating. They are eating Keto and paleo and feels great.[00:13:07] 

David Porte. a 50-year-old trail runner, is a steady listener of the podcasts. What can be done about his plantar fasciitis? [00:15:27] 

Conrad asking about short sprints. What would be advised about altering my weekly schedule regarding sprints? [00:19:44] 

Darren has quite a running history. He asks about Maffetone's suggestions of one hour sessions with 15 minute warm up, 30 minutes at maximum aerobic heart rate, and 15 minute cool down. He is training for NYC marathon. What distances should I be training at?  [00:24:35] 

Matt: How do mid-race or pre-race carbs affect my ability to burn fat?  [00:29:23]

Derek is asking: What do you recommend to someone who loves Keto but expends 3000 to 5000 calories a day during constant activity and two highly intense workouts per day? [00:35:50] 



Dr. Mark Cucuzella: He is a professor at West Virginia University School of Medicine. Of his many specialties he has designed programs to promote healthier and better running and has also worked on getting sugar out of the hospital because he knows excessive sugar consumption leads to a host of ailments.

Brad’s podcast with Mark Cucuzzella This podcast is about how physiology affects food habits (and vice versa), carnivore diets, high vs. low-carb/keto for bodybuilding, exogenous ketones, how insulin sensitivity possibly affects BAT vs WAT fat depots.

Ted Mcdonald: Creator of barfoot running.  He has run the Inca Trail in Peru. He teaches yoga.

Paleo FX: The world’s premier holistic wellness event, covering healthy nutrition, fitness, sustainability, self-development, spirituality, relationships, entrepreneurship and everything in between.

Trail Runner Nation: They provide podcasts and social media connections for trail running, pacing, race nutrition, gear and much more.

UCan:  For a steady long-lasting energy without the sugar crash!!

Luis Villasenor:  A Podcast on strength training on a Ketogenic diet



You need to tie in what you are doing nutritionally in training and know exactly what is happening on race day. (Brad)

Jul 20, 2018
Host Brad Kearns shares the little known secret about Janet Jackson's racy lyrics in the song "If" that were imperceptible to the human ear when it was getting radio play in the 90s as a hit song. Horrors Casey Kasem! Brad talks about the overstimulation of the fight or flight response leading first to PRs and then to impending doom. A cool success story from James, who was running 14 min miles when starting MAF 3.5 years ago and now being able to hold the same pace at 52 beats per minute below MAF! How's your training gone over the past 3.5 years? Consider being patient and experiencing a significant reduction in your MAF pace, though not in a linear manner
96-year-old golfer getting some cameo props for his endurance in life. Jason Trew with a unique and creative way to stay below MAF while running faster spurts and then walking to keep watch from beeping. James Hall asks about the rationale of applying 180-age formula everyone, causing Brad to go off about his burnout experience followed by major medical misfortune in 2015 that he attributes strongly to a chronic training pattern where he routinely exceeded 180-age (by 12 beats in fact) due to using the inferior 75% of max heart rate calculation for an aerobic workout. Oh man, we talk about peeing blood and all kinds of stuff that will have you sorry you ever asked to increase MAF heart rate!! Enjoy this lively show with some memorable takeaway insights.
Jul 13, 2018

Brad catches up with Guinness World Record holding ultra-endurance athlete Tom Seabourne, a professor of Exercise Physiology at Northeast Texas Community College who has pushed the limits of human endurance with numerous finishes in what Outside magazine calls the toughest athletic event in the world: The non-stop solo bicycle Race Across America (RAAM). Tom and Brad reminisce about the old days where Tom was on the cheapest crew in the history of the race, while Brad was part of Johnny G’s most expensive crew in the history of the race. Tom was 103 miles from the finish line at 3,000 miles when he was eliminated on time. Heartbreak, but it got him “addicted” to the event, which he went on to finish several times. Cycling over 300 miles for 22 hours a day is pretty tough, but Tom’s crew follies were epic. Once, his team lost him in the California desert soon after the start. Another time his relay team members bailed in Utah! Tom also set a Guinness World record for the longest stationary bike ride of 185 hours - over 7 days (watching The Office re-runs helped pass the time)! The record performance, notwithstanding the “urine explosion” incident, that you have to hear to believe.

As a “horrible carb addict” during his ultramarathon cycling days, Tom actually developed Type 1.5 diabetes (fasting glucose 450!) despite being at 5% body fat. He also developed atrial fibrillation and atrial flutter, which are now becoming commonplace maladies among extreme endurance athletes. Learn what’s happening in the mind of an ultra king during these long efforts, which Tom describes as a flow-like experience. 


Brad welcomes Tom Seabourne who is doing amazing athletic exploits while battling various health conditions. [00:00:16] 

What is the Race Across America (RAAM)? What was Tom's experience? [00:01:45] 

How did Tom's plantar fasciitis get cured? [00:08:28] 

What is entailed in being on the crew for this race? [00:09:45] 

Never try something without having the training or having sponsors for it! [00:16:26] 

He had a history of horrible eating. [00:20:53] 

What about calories in and calories out? [00:23:35] 

What happened when Tom did the record-setting ride on the Spinner bike? [00:25:01] 

Tom talks about his atrial fibrillation. [00:31:35] 

Has Tom changed his approach to training since the heart problems? Is he addicted? [00:35:33] 

Does Brad think about going back to the triathlon? [00:39:07] 

Is something special about the sort of meditative experience we have when riding? [00:40:57] 

What is a Type 1.5 diabetic? How is he handling it? What is the difference between Type 1 and 2? [00:53:27] 

What is the ablation procedure for atrial fibrillation? Don't wait too long to take care of yourself. [01:01:08]  

Check out Tom’s book on Amazon called, Glitches Into Gold



Glitches Into Gold:

Race Across America:



Never try something without having training for it!

We are nothing more than the space between our thoughts.

Jul 6, 2018

Brad lays out a master plan to improve your running performance, looking beyond the obvious and sometimes misguided insights to push harder, add more speed workouts, or run more miles. Endurance athletes often overlook the importance of technique, and often exhibit horrible technique. No excuses are such a simple sport! Golf - plenty of excuses for a lousy swing (it’s very technical and hard to develop), but not running!

Some discussion of technique ensues, emphasizing balanced center of gravity at all times and good posture. The listener is urged to dive deep into the running technique instruction, drills and sprint workout videos in the Primal Endurance Mastery Course at Sprinting is great for technique development because the penalty for a poor technique is severe. Ditto for running barefoot on concrete - you very quickly learn how to strike the ground and absorb shock optimally, and generate explosive force with each stride. In contrast, cushy running shoes ruin your proprioception and enable lousy technique to become ingrained


When you sprint, make sure it’s an actual sprint. Even reps of 100-meter sprints are great for the hormonal, musculoskeletal and technique refinement benefits. Brad rarely goes further than this. Sprints are quality over quantity, both in the frequency of workouts (3x/month during intensity phases is plenty) and duration of efforts. Most endurance athletes make their “speed” workouts a suffer fest (ahem, 6 x 800m and so forth). They just get exhausted, don’t really run explosively, and lose out on the benefits of actual sprinting. This show will be a real eye-opener for how to integrate high intensity into your schedule the right way and get you thinking more about good technique instead of just shuffling along. 


“The penalty for technique errors and not properly absorbing the impact is severe.”


How does one build aerobic base efficiency? [00:00:58] 

What is the cut-off point 50-50 performance? [00:05:30] 

What are the benefits of doing super hard sprinting? [00:07:19] 

Dorsa flex foot is like imagining pedaling your bike over hot lava. [00:08:40] 

A good way to teach people how to run is to have them run barefoot on cement! [00:10:58] 

How does one rewire the Central Nervous System to be more efficient? [00:13:59] 

How often should a person sprint? [00:16:09] 

What are some good workout suggestions? [00:17:23] 



Barefoot Ted

Primal Blueprint

Jun 29, 2018

Brad lays out a master plan for you to improve your swimming performance in multisport events. And no, sorry, it’s not about pushing harder and grinding out more yards. It entails a strategic approach where you emphasize the right things and work smarter instead of harder. Let’s consider that there are three components to swimming performance: technique, muscular endurance, and cardiovascular fitness. Technique is by far the most important factor for improvement. The report card of most triathletes might look like: D or F in technique, B or C in muscular endurance and an A+ in Technique is best refined at a slow pace, not when you are fighting to make an interval time. Slow down to go faster - sound familiar? This is when you can best rewire new and improved neuromuscular patterns and make them stick. “Nerves that fire together wire together,” says Dr. Kelly Starrett. Muscular endurance can be developed with dry land exercises that are vastly more time efficient than swimming. Check out the Vasa trainer or Stretch Cordz and hit it hard for 10 minutes; it’s similar in muscular benefit to an hour swim (and remember, you already have an A+ in cardio!) Get out into open water as often as possible, and if you are in the pool, simulate open water by sighting every few strokes or closing your eyes for a few strokes to check your balance. 

Finally, conduct workouts that simulate the race experience, such as time trialing for 1.5k (Olympic) or 2k (70.3) or even 4k (ironman) and immediately jumping on your bike for a time trial. Yes, dripping wet and fussing with wet feet into shoes or water dripping into your lenses. If you are dedicating your season and paying a zillion dollars to enter an Ironman, at least get into the open water for a 4k nonstop swim, then immediately jump on your bike for a long. We don’t want surprises on race day. 

Brad uses paddleboats as a comparison to explain human swimming technique. [00:00:49] 

What can you learn from comparing your stroke to a boat's propeller's action? [00:05:41] 

It is important to find the still water for your stroke. Learn the difference between "Lift Propulsion” and “Drag Propulsion." [00:08:18] 

Technique, muscular endurance, and cardio-vascular fitness are the three main areas of the swim stroke. [00:13:45] 

What is a description of a streamlined position in the water? [00:19:54] 

How do you engrain good technique or revise flawed patterns? [00:23:15] 

You might want to focus on your stroke rate rather than stroke length. [00:30:25] 

How does one improve muscular endurance? [00:32:55] 

How important is it to simulate the competitive experience as I train? [00:40:42] 


Dr. Kelly Starrett

Stretch Cordz

Vasa Trainer


Jeff Float

Jun 22, 2018

Host Brad Kearns ups the ante and records this podcast as a Facebook Live event! You can find the video to the show archived on the Primal Endurance Facebook page. Frequent contributor David Lapp weighs in on the do's and don'ts of cold water therapy (use away from the training stimulus). An interesting question is posed about whether high ketone levels might enable magnificent endurance feats at a fast pace (sorry, no can do; the natural laws of the universe apply to fitness, and you will get tired if you aren't prepared to go long...ask Brad when he tried to run 15 miles with Dr. Steven and made it only 7 before tying up). Another interesting question about an adverse telomere length test, and can one improve their longevity profile? Yes, including improving your time in the one-mile run to deliver a strong longevity benefit. Sebastian Bach of Skid Row gets a cameo, trip out on that.

David Lapp has asked if cold therapy is best right after workouts. [00:00:56] 

There shouldn't be a big need to stretch unless you are overtraining!  [00:07:09] 

What about rolling out the IT band? [00:08:23] 

Should one push up to a higher heart rate? [00:10:10] 

Is fat adaptation the reason for my improvement or the MAF way of training? [00:12:35] 

Be cognizant that you may be ingesting food outside the recommended 12-hour window. [00:15:58] 

How does Brad make Kombucha? [00:21:02] 

Charles age 42 asks: "If I'm in ketosis, could I run a marathon and just keep going if I run slow enough?" [00:24:36] 

Paul age 53 says:  "My telomeres tests show that my body is 13 years older than my chronological age! YIKES!!! What can I do?" [00:30:54] 

Aerobics Institute in Texas predicts longevity with a test of a one-mile run. [00:40:57] 


“There shouldn’t be a need to stretch unless you are overtraining.”

“Keep your caloric ingesting within a 12-hour window.”



Aerobic Institute

Ageless Body, Timeless Mind

The Maybe Not So Definitive Guide to Cold Therapy

Brad Kearns Chest Freezer Cold Plunge

Brad Kearns Morning Green Smoothie

IT Band

Eating Academy

Sami Inkinen


Ben Greenfield

21-Day Primal Reset


Jun 15, 2018

Brad fields many interesting and unusual questions in today's podcast.

Question from Charles: What entails maximum sustained power training? How often should a person do this?  [00:01:27]

Brad warns about the danger of road cycling. [00:12:11] 

Brad explains workouts done properly. [00:18:08] 

David Lapp asks: How do you get rid of the bad habit of chronic training patterns?  [00:23:13] 

What is the argument against consistency? [00:29:04] 

Brad gives the secret password for a discount on the Primal Endurance course. [00:34:01] 

Todd asks: If one takes a long walk or a hike at a brisk pace,  is it possible to still trigger the flight or fight response in the body? [00:35:36] 

Travis asks about his frustration of trying to adjust to the MAF training. [00:41:15] 

The cutoff point for 50-50 (50 percent aerobic and 50 percent anaerobic) is a race that lasts 1 minute and 25 seconds.



“A little goes a long way. Make sure you get rest.”


“Of all the dangerous things you may do in your life remember that road cycling is the number one most dangerous thing you can do.  Be careful out there!!”


“The cutoff point for 50-50 (50 percent aerobic contribution and 50 percent anaerobic contribution) is a race that lasts 1 minute and 25 seconds.”




Jun 8, 2018

Host Brad Kearns talks to Andre Obradovic from Melbourne, Australia. Andre is a highly engaging personal trainer, triathlon coach, and elite level performer in the 50+ ranks at 70.3 triathlon—ranked 10th in the Ironman All World Athlete rankings for Australia, the most competitive triathlon environment on the planet, mate. Andre’s remarkable story of transitioning from a “little fatty carb burner, sucking up food like a pool sweep machine” back in 2011 to a lean, mean, fat burning beast will inspire you to trust the process and be the best you can be. Basically, Andre cut processed carbs, slowed down his training pace, threw in some mobility/flexibility and power training, and started getting healthier and faster. He went from needing an energy gel to complete a 10k run, to improve his marathon time by 17 minutes despite being 7 years older.  Now he is so committed to the primal approach that he refuses to train a prospective client in his gym until they agree to transition from a SAD diet (Standard Australian Diet - yes they wolf down Weetabix Down Under) to a nutritious, primal-style diet. 

Andre peppers in some highly entertaining and memorable quotes during this show. Trust the process, don’t be a “muppet” (a blind follower of what Andre calls “conventional stupidity”), don’t fritter time away on “Wastebook”, and when you’re running a marathon, focus on a rapid cadence with balanced center of gravity, and try the mantra “Glutes On! Hips Up!”—yes, technique matters even when you’re jogging along at marathon pace. Try training and even racing without a watch to increase focus on form and intuitively optimal effort.  

Andre relates how only two years ago, he was hopeless in the gym. He studied the Maximum Sustained Power concept detailed in Primal Endurance book and Mastery Course and even booked a private Skype session with MSP guru Jacques DeVore to get a custom program designed. Yeah, this dude you line up against in the 50-54 division is going into the gym and hitting the hex bar deadlift with multiple sets at 97 kilos (that’s 213lbs for a guy weighing a buck-forty - amazing!), along with numerous complementary exercises like lat pulls, clap pushups, Bulgarian split lunges (sounds hard), Swiss ball core work, and explosive lunge walks. Yes, friends, this is the picture of the evolved multisport athlete — grabbing podiums spots while training more sensibly and less exhaustively. This is not about flawed and dated “quality vs quantity” debate, but rather about eating right, balancing stress and rest at all times, honoring the MAF heart rate for aerobic development, looking at the big picture of training that includes flexibility/mobility and strength/power as well as endurance, making intuitive decisions (Andre does an extensive warmup in the gym and then has a “check-in” moment before he proceeds with the hard stuff.) Finally, Andre embodies that relaxed, “no worries, mate,” Aussie ethos where you tone down the misplaced competitive intensity and enjoy the journey. Andre reminds us that life is short but we are dead for a bloody long time, so you might as well make your best effort. Enjoy the show. 


Andre Obradovic tells us his outstanding accomplishments and has good tips for maintaining health and recovering from stress caused fatigue.  [00:01:20] 

Does he really run marathon at his MAF heart rate? [00:04:25] 

After gaining weight, he was transformed back to normal healthy weight because of the dietary changes he made. [00:06:52] 

Flexibility/mobility training is most important. [00:15:23] 

Should you be focusing on your time and heart rate? [00:20:29] 

Why are we in such a rush? [00:24:40] 

We should be aware how stress affects the family. [00:27:23] 

What does he mean by his "gluts and high hips" mantra when he is running? Why should we run with barefoot? 00:29:19] 

You ought to be able to race without data. [00:32:41] 

How does (MSP) maximum sustained power correlate to endurance competitive goals? What is Andre's workout routine?  00:36:59] 

Checking in on our bodies is so important. [00:43:53] 


- I go against conventional stupidity!

- Don’t be a Muppet…get off the couch!

- Personal trainers should be talking about diet before the physical training.

- The endurance athlete’s perceived sign of success seems to be training themselves into exhaustion.

- You ought to be able to race without data.

- Think Wastebook instead of Facebook!

- Checking in on our bodies is so important.


Andre Obradovic


Primal Endurance Mastery Course

Jun 1, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Dan (?) Can you elaborate on what is a suitable domain for self-experimentation vs. the core principles that have remained unchanged in your routine over the past several years? Can you comment on the relative merit of Fartlek vs. occasional dedicated speed workouts?  [00:00:37] 

David Lapp asks whether one can still do long distance Ironman-length triathlons after age 50 and be healthy? [00:09:26] 

As I am learning to go with the low carb diet, will my fasting lead to not eating enough? [00:20:14] 

Thomas Peterson: Can you please compare and contrast the benefits of doing short speed work during a normal 180 minus age run vs. a dedicated speed workout? [00:29:31] 

Thomas also asks: What are the principles that we should never change come hell or high water? AND What are the aspects of fitness where we should feel free to experiment? [00:30:17] 

Dr. Ted asks "Do I need to add more speed work or race pace runs to help me finish better?" [00:37:16] 

May 25, 2018

Host Brad Kearns welcomes pioneering physician and legendary endurance runner Dr. Mark Cucuzzella of West Virginia. Mark has run a sub-3 hour marathon for 30 consecutive years! With an all-time best of 2:24, he is still going strong at age 51. And he is doing this stuff in barefoot/minimal footwear. He opened the nations first minimalist running shoe store called TwoRiversTreads. In this show, Mark talks about his high carb, running machine past and his evolution into a healthy, fat-adapted runner. He advocates for doing short bursts of sprinting frequently, called "alactic sprints". When you accelerate for several seconds, you teach your central nervous system the optimal movement patterns to maximize propulsive force and prevent injury, but you aren't overstressing the body with longer duration sprints. Mark is big on going barefoot and being active instead of being a "zoo human." 

He discusses his truly revolutionary effort to rid his local hospital of sweetened beverages and enhance education in the diabetic community as to the benefits of ditching processed carbs and increasing intake of healthy, nutritious fats. Mark's journey was turbo-charged six years ago when he learned he was pre-diabetic, despite decades of elite level marathon performance and being a lean, mean machine. He read Gary Taubes's work and embarked on a low-carb lifestyle, also embracing the aerobic training principles of his longtime friend Dr. Phil Maffetone. Mark mentions that is the stuffy medical world, we need convincing for dietary transformation, and that Continuous Glucose Monitors are now easily accessible for all. The small effort he is making in West Virginia (the most obese all US states in fact!) is spreading quickly in the medical community as Mark spreads the word. Enjoy these insights from a truly exceptional endurance performer who is doing transformative work in his hospital environment!

After performing at a fast level and having the accompanying injuries, is there a way to analyze the future potential you have to improve or surpass your previous record?  [00:05:14] 

Does the development of the athletic ability in a youngster really help prepare for adult competition? [00:09:22] 

How does one work on their form? [00:14:43] 

The body loves variability. [00:20:08] 

How has the medical world failed in keeping up with the new information on diabetes? [00:21:22] 

What happened when Mark was diagnosed with pre-diabetes? [00:35:03] 

What about the lower heart rate training program? How did the fat burning capacity develop? [00:42:11] 

The importance of sleep is often overlooked.[00:43:48] 

What is hypoglycemia? [00:45:02] 

Can a person still eat carbs at all? [00:48:56] 


FreeStyle Libre

Mark Cucuzella

Natural Running Center

True Form Runner

Two Rivers Treads

May 18, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Estelle asks about her plantar fasciitis. Rest doesn't work, why? What can she do?? [00:00:33]  

Mark is using the adjustable desk. Is there any research of endurance athletes with desk jobs benefitting from the standup desk? What can the guy with the desk job do?  [00:06:53] 

What about chest freezer cold water therapy? What is a Hexbar?  [00:18:41] 

Ryan asks: Does it make physiological sense to perform a few sets of relatively heavy squats before my morning run to burn off muscle glycogen and get into ketosis faster for the run? [00:21:44] 

Whit asks: Is the MAF calculation is affected by altitude? What about high altitude training in general? [00:23:40] 

Brad Kearns Daily Routine

Brad Kearns Freezer Therapy

Dr. Kelly Starrett

Rethinking Recovery

Plantar Fasciitis


May 11, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Andy in Germany asks:  After a history of minor but annoying injuries, I started to train the primal way two years ago and made it to Kona. I keep measuring my heart rate. Now I am wondering what causes a huge difference in my training heart rate and my racing heart rate? [00:01:19] 

Adam wants to know how to regulate his weight gain/loss cycle. What about lactic acid changes in the muscles? [00:12:45] 

Wade is a plays hockey which is an extreme stop and start sport. He asks:  What is the Primal Endurance approach for training for this type of situation?  [00:17:03] 

Emma (60) Does your aerobic base differ for each sport: swimming, biking, and running? [00:22:32] 

What is the reason for breathing only through your nose while training? [00:25:10] 

Can I still incorporate the nose breathing during swimming and bicycling training? [00:28:12] 

Pader is a runner and asks about the P-90X training in conjunction with the primal training. [00:29:02] 

Jonathan asks: Is it possible for an athlete to come back after burnout? [00:31:41] 

May 4, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Todd (age 33) has Lymes disease and he's had many surgeries but still is a fit specimen. He is now getting ready for a sprint triathlon and is asking about how to prevent burnout. What is the best way for him to train? [00:00:59] 

Paul is new to Primal Endurance life. He went on a 24-hour mountain bike ride. He suffered from GI problems and had to stop the race. He also asks about keeping his heart rate where he wants it to be when he is going uphill on his bike? What does he need to do differently? [00:08:10] 

Sometimes you just have to relax about the competition. [00:15:31] 

What are some suggestions about fueling during race? [00:18:05] 

Warren asks "How do apply the 180 minus age formula to children?" [00:23:44] 

Bradley asks if people would consider refereeing soccer an endurance sport? [00:27:20] 

Bruce has trouble buying into Dr. Maffetone's 180 minus age training formula. [00:30:34] 

Doug asks about the run-walk formula that he is using. [00:32:38] 

Apr 27, 2018

Host Brad Kearns welcomes favored recurring guest Andrew MacNaughton of TheAthletesPotential. It's been a while since we caught up with Andrew, so he details his dietary experimentation with keto, his return to training after a year of minimal exercise, and the usual assortment of juicy asides and insights about adopting the proper mindset for endurance exercise. Andrew went deep with some 24-hour and even 48-hour fasting, saying that it was no trouble--even while doing moderate aerobic workouts during the fasting period. The show discusses the great potential of functional medicine to help athletes get healthy, the necessary first step to pursuing fitness goals. Gut dysfunction is so prevalent these days, and functional testing can go where traditional medicine does not. Andrew does complete testing every two years so he can track his progression of aging and make sure he is doing the best he can to sustain peak function. 

Andrew recommends that athletes ask themselves the important questions of, "what would be best?” "how can I do better?" (for health, for peak performance, etc.) and then work toward the best accommodation of those goals. Putting health as the absolute #1 priority is a good start. Enjoy the show. Please take a moment to leave the show a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and spread the word to your peeps on social media.

What did Andrew learn when he tried the Keto experiment as well as trying fasting? [00:01:18] 

It takes less time to recover from no meal than it does to recover from bad food! [00:04:08] 

What about damage from the vegetable oils? [00:08:07] 

What happens as you age when your childhood eating habits were poor? [00:10:06] 

What kind of functional testing does he do with his clients? [00:14:24] 

What are some of the results Andrew finds in his own testing? [00:16:05]

Can one always tell when they have a problem like in the digestive system? [00:19:33] 

When acknowledging that our bodies aren't functioning perfectly, it is important to at least learn what would be best for you as you move forward. [00:20:45] 

It is very common in this current lifestyle to be so busy that you ignore your body. [00:24:24] 

With Andrew's experimenting in diet, what were the effects on his exercise and training? [00:27:39] 

Comfort food will eventually make you uncomfortable. [00:39:07] 

Do you know what it feels like to feel good? [00:40:35] 

Apr 20, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Candy is a coach and she is asking about training young kids and how to prevent injury and burnout. [00:00:53] 

David asks about aerobic vs. anaerobic training. He has slowed down his training and now he wants to compete. Will he have to start all over again after he competes using maximum speed? [00:07:30] 

Another David, age 28, finds it difficult to contain his heart rate when something beyond his control comes into the picture. What happens to his heart rate? [00.19.12]

Ward asks about skipping workouts. He asks about muscle loss in older people (sarcopenia) and whether your skills get depleted if you are not consistent. [00:22:35] 

What about de-training due to illness or injury? Can you get it back? [00:30:05] 

Travis asks, "Does ketosis protect me from injury?" [00:32:53] 

Josh is asking about a massive Navy Seal challenge he participated in and whether such an event is damaging. How can you go about participating in Primal Obstacle Race? [00:35:43] 


Apr 13, 2018

Brad continues to discuss topics of recent interest and new strategies he is trying out in training experiments, including his plunging deep into the world of temperature therapy. In consult with Dr. Kelly Starrett, author of Becoming a Supple Leopard and founder of, you’ll get tips to start using cold water therapy as well as heat therapy to pursue the vaunted benefits. 

Brad has a chest freezer filled with near-freezing water for both morning and evening plunges. For morning, it’s a hermetic stressor to boost adaptive hormones and naturally sharpen central nervous system function. For before bed, a quick plunge helps facilitate a good night’s sleep by lowering body temperature. Brad’s game is to stay for ~3 min at temperatures 36-40F. Not long enough to suffer or shiver for hours afterward. 

Check out his YouTube videos: Check out his YouTube demonstration coming soon!

Short demo to get you started: Coming Soon!

A detailed description of benefits and demo: Coming Soon!

The deal with cold therapy is to keep it far away from training stimulus. You want the inflammatory process to run its course after a workout, despite the fact that it feels great to cool your legs in an icy river after a hard run or the like. 

With heat therapy, the infrared sauna causes a mini-fever effect to enhance cellular function and improve cardiovascular function. Starrett likes the hot sauna where you can really sweat and even get uncomfortable before getting out. Brad is doing Chris Kelly’s Nourish BalanceThrive detox protocol of going into a sauna for a big sweat, and immediately scrubbing off with Dr. Bronners soap to clear toxins (since his NBT tests showed residue of toxic metals and rubber by-products in his blood! Possibly a consequence of growing up in smoggy LA or perhaps even drinking from plastic water bottles that have been exposed to heat - like a sunny car.)

In furthering the concept of a more varied and relaxed approach to training, Brad references the podcast where he discussed the Simply Running approach of New Zealand Olympic 1500 meter silver and bronze medalist Nick Willis. The takeaway message is to design a training program that is enjoyable, fits conveniently into your other life responsibilities, and tone down the obsessive need to hit arbitrary time or volume standards. Consistency in the context of building fitness is simply not as important as we think it is. Don’t compare yourself to the elites. They are out there for hours every largely because they do have plenty of time to spend on training and are looking for those incremental benefits. 

Take a page from the bodybuilding scene. Ridicule the bro science if you must, but bodybuilders respect and appreciate the importance of balancing stress and rest—breaking down muscles with intense training and then resting and hyper-nourishing to come back with huge muscles. 

On the other hand, realize the disastrous consequences of a chronic approach, as we now see the elevated cardiovascular disease risk factors in hard training. 

Brad also refers to his super nutrition morning green smoothie, also available on YouTube: Coming Soon!

Great topics to get you thinking about ways to optimize your approach to training!

Nick Willis Show:

Muscleheads ripping on cardio article:

Cold water - long:


Cold water - quick demo:


Smoothie - long:


Smoothie - quick demo:


Mobility Workout


What is cold temperature therapy and what are the benefits of it? [00:01:44] 

How does melatonin work in helping one sleep? What else helps one sleep? [00:09:51] 

You do not want the cold exposure anywhere near your workout. [00:13:17] 

What is the role of heat therapy? [00:17:00]

How does Brad start his day? What motivates him? [00:24:20] 

Kickstart your digestive circadian rhythm with a green smoothie.  [00:29:16] 

Do we need to eat more calories when we are focused on Keto dieting? [00:32:59] 

How do we know if we have a carb dependency problem? [00:37:09] 

Apr 6, 2018

Brad updates you on topics of recent interest and new strategies he is trying out in training. Included is his experiment to bring more downtime into his exercise patterns. This means periods of 24-36 hours where there are no formal workouts; this is in order to perform at a higher level when he pushes himself with challenging endurance or high-intensity workouts. That said, Brad also discusses the importance of establishing a baseline routine of general everyday movement, mobility/flexibility exercises, random strength/explosive efforts, and not worrying as much about filling in all the blanks of a training log. 

 Brad reports that despite reduced overall running frequency and monthly volume, he felt stronger than ever delivering a maximum effort to get his first win in a Speedgolf tournament—playing 18 holes on a hilly course in San Luis Obispo in 52 min and shooting 85 for a Speedgolf score of 137. Brad credits being fully rested, along with having some good sprint workouts, for a strong endurance performance at the tournament. Yes, high-intensity sprint sessions will greatly improve your endurance if they are conducted properly and not in an overly strenuous manner. Then, you pair occasional hard stuff with very comfortably paced aerobic workouts that are safely below MAF heart rate or perhaps WAY below MAF heart rate. Don’t worry; you still get a significant aerobic stimulus even if it’s a brisk walk or a cruiser bike trip to Farmer’s Market. Dr. Maffetone details these concepts in his series of outstanding videos in the Primal Endurance Mastery Course at


Brad lets us in on some of the fitness routines that keep him in shape. What?? Downtime?? [00:02:21] 

Does slowing down interfere with the competition? What happens when Brad plays Speed Golf? [00:14:39] 

"Simply Running" is a book about modifying training by Nick Willis suggesting the same slowing down theory. [00:18:30] 

Is excessive cardio really unhealthy? [00:20:54] 

What happens if you are sleep deprived? What is Leptin?  What is Ghrelin? [00:24:06]  

Are endurance athletes at risk? [00:26:44] 

Does genetics come into play? [00:30:21] 


Mar 30, 2018
Lindsay welcomes Simon Marshall, Ph.D., one half of the brain trust behind Braveheart Coaching ( and co-author along with his wife Lesley Paterson of The Brave Athlete: Calm the F*ck Down and Rise to the Occasion. Simon is an expert in helping athletes of all levels wrangle their inner "chimp brains" so they can pursue their sports with the heart, wings, and fight of a truly brave athlete. In this episode, Simon discusses with Lindsay the importance of developing an athlete identity, as well as how to know when you're getting waylaid by a "gremlin" (an unwanted thought, feeling, or belief that threatens to derail you on your athletic journey). Whether or not you currently think of yourself an athlete,* Simon is here to share his wealth of knowledge gleaned from years of conducting his own scientific research, racing as a competitive cyclist, and acting as professional sherpa and founding member of Team S.H.I.T. (Supportive Husbands in Training) for Lesley, who is a professional mountain biker, three-time world champion in off-road triathlon, and Ironman® triathlon champion.
* Hint: If you're listening, you're probably an athlete; and if you're not comfortable calling yourself that despite evidence to the contrary (a hefty budget set aside for race fees and equipment, an early-morning alarm set for training, and a love of your sport), read The Brave Athlete.
To find out more about Simon and Lesley's work, visit:

Dr. Simon Marshall

Lesley Paterson

Mar 23, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air. While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Chris asks if the problem people have with running at the "brutally slow place" has anything to do with body composition. [00:02:21] 

What about nose breathing? Do we need a heart monitor?  [00:05:31] 

Ben asks for advise for those folks who are only able to get out there a couple of short runs per week. [00:13:27] 

Tom says he is only a year into running and I really loved it BUT after getting into Maffetone's Yellow Book and Primal Endurance books, he doesn't have any fun. [00:17:33] 

What happens if we don't acknowledge that our bodies aren't at 10 percent well? [00:21:41] 

Rob is asking about his 13 year-old son's development as he is getting into competitive sports.  [00:26:53] 

What about fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscles? [00:32:03] 

If you do a lot of endurance training will you loose something on the fast twitch side? [00:33:41] 

Mar 16, 2018

Host Brad Kearns welcomes the Brock the Renaissance man from Vancouver, Canada. Brock is deep into the podcast scene as a producer and host of numerous health/fitness/primal-paleo/biohacking style shows, and also a longtime endurance coach. His Workplace Hero podcast helps those with sedentary office jobs make the best of their surroundings and minimize the health challenges of office work. Having been around the biohacking scene for a while, Brock states that he is generally the ultimate skeptic and non-responder to much fancy cool stuff that he has tried. This wide-ranging conversation unearths some memorable insights and clarities for those seeking an effective diet, exercise and lifestyle regimen. 

 This show covers: The state of the union and future hopes for the medium of podcasting; how Brock transitioned from a strict endurance athlete to hit the gym and get jacked! (including the top secret, highly questionable supplement that he obtained through a sketchy supplier that worked so well it scared the crap out of him!); the new trend of top endurance athletes passing on stretching, icing, massage, and foam rolling, because they’d rather feel the tightness and inflammation that is a fundamental component of the training effect. On that note, post-workout heat therapy is proving to be an excellent way to boost fitness, while cold therapy might be best in the early morning (per K-Starr), at least 2 hours after workouts to not interfere with the training effect, or in the evening (especially when paired with hot, like Brad in wintertime at his parents cold pool, hot spa in LA!). Along these lines, the pair discusses whether the benefits of yoga are overblown, and how pursuing broad-based fitness competency with functional mobility/flexibility exercises and increased general everyday movement might be the best winning ticket for athletes. 

 Brock geeks out with a great insight about Hebbs Law - where “neurons that fire together, wire together.” Translation: If your swim stroke or running form sucks, training will ingrain these technique flaws further. Enroll in the Primal Endurance Mastery Course and learn how to run with the grace and beauty of a deer! We end with a frank discussion about bio hacks - the pure nonsense out there, how lots of expensive high tech stuff lacks relevance to the average athlete, how bad lifestyle habits will render your hacks useless, and how Brock’s muscles got so big, so fast, he washed his fake essential oils down the toilet and stuck with the basics. This is a very entertaining show with both philosophical questions to ponder and practical tips to implement. 

What going on in podcasting in today's community? [00:04:09] 

How did Brock transition to strength training from his focus on endurance work? [00:13:06] 

Is there a benefit of massage or yoga on athletes who are trying to bulk up their bodies? [00:17:52] 

How does one know what level of fitness they have? [00:23:17] 

What do we mean when we say the word "fitness"? What are you thinking when you hear that word? [00:29:51] 

What holds people back from getting the proper fitness routine? [00:35:15] 

How does Hebb's Rule affect technique and how can it work against you if you are learning? [00:36:59] 

Don't we just know how to run naturally? [00:41:22] 

Aren't there some shortcuts to fitness? [00:42:52] 

What about cryotherapy? [00:51:14] 

What is the benefit of the sauna? [00:53:32] 

What are peptides that Brock was using? [00:59:37]

Mar 9, 2018

Host Brad Kearns welcomes Tom Hughes of Tri Mechanics in Great Britain. Tom is an expert in skill development and technique for endurance sports, and discusses the benefits of using barefoot/minimalist shoes to refine good running technique. Interestingly, wearing comfortable, cushiony shoes causes more actual impact trauma to your joints (you just can’t feel it), more instability with your balance, and a loss of explosive propulsive force. Tom makes a food analogy about shoes called the “Chocolate Brownie Theory.” Yes, the brownie tastes great at first, but has adverse long-term consequences. 

Tom also echoes Katy Bowman’s Movement Nutrition work in discussing the importance of building good “movement habits.” Brad talks about how he makes housework a killer full body workout. Mopping on all fours makes for a sliding plank session. Any time a stair ascent is called for in everyday home living, why not make a commitment to sprint them, every time! Kelly Starrett of argues that endurance athletes should spend 15 minutes of every workout hour doing mobility/flexibility. Add this all up and it’s a mind blower for endurance athletes with ‘one track minds.’

The conversation extends into other interesting areas, including how Tom improved his testosterone readings by honoring the concept of a circadian digestive clock promoted by Dr. Satchin Panda. Tom started making a nutritious smoothie in the morning, which he believed helped kick start his digestive system and get energized for a productive day, and also lower his stress hormone production that might have occurred during his morning hours in a fasted state. The show also covers concerns about overtraining and compromised recovery, advancing the idea Brad discussed on his recent show with Joel Jamieson about recovery debt and the importance of actually devoting time and energy to recovery instead of just taking it for granted.

Why is a runner's technique so important? [00:00:57] 

How does swimming technique make a difference? [00:06:53] 

What is wrong about the comfortable shoes we are used to? [00:11:48] 

If a runner switches to the minimalist shoes or barefoot, isn't he going to have some pain while adjusting? [00:20:43] 

How does one progress into this new running style? [00:22:33] 

How does one pick a good shoe? [00:27:33] 

How does he work with clients to improve technique? [00:30:50] 

What kind of drills does one need to do to improve balance? [00:34:10] 

What are some ways to keep in shape that one can work into the busy day? [00:41:21] 

Fitness is multifaceted. Even some athletes are not in the shape they think they are. [00:46:57] 

What is digestive circadian rhythm? How does when you eat have an effect? [00:51:52] 

Some time being very lean is not the ideal. [01:04:23] 

Mar 2, 2018

Hosts Brad Kearns and Dr. Linsday Taylor get deep into the psyche of the endurance athlete and address some of the common challenges. For happiness and well-being, it's critical to behave in a manner congruent with your stated goals. When you are overtraining and dragging you and your ego thru ill-advised workouts, you depart from high minded ideals and are succumbing to rat race mentality where, as bestselling author Brené Brown says, "fatigue is a badge of honor in modern culture, and self-worth is determined by productivity". Or as frequent podcast guest Andrew MacNaughton comments, "Endurance athletes are most content when they train themselves to exhaustion." Hmm, ring a bell? There is a better way! Hang with the Primal Endurance podcast and enroll in the Mastery Course to get the guidance and expert insights you need to succeed with endurance goals without compromising your health.

View full video:


Brad and Lindsay discuss aerobic emphasis training and the carbohydrate intake problem. [00:00:16]

How can it be possible that going slower can make you go faster? [00:03:35] 

What about the bursts of high speed? [00:06:53] 

Are you not satisfied until you are exhausted? [00:13:16] 

How important is the recovery phase? [00:16:41] 

What is your desire to train? Are you taking care of your body?  [00:18:47] 

What happens when your focus is improving your technique rather than the speed? [00:26:28] 

Why is it so tough? Why do we feel inferior if we are not pushing it? [00:28:02] 

Are you a person who can tolerate uncertainty? [00:32:06] 

Learn how to trust in your own ability to understand your needs. [00:34:41] 

Understand why you are doing this. [00:35:02]


Feb 23, 2018

Brad Kearns tackles more interesting Q&A from Primal Endurance podcast listeners and book readers. Submit your questions at and they will get covered on the air.  While the questions relate to the specific needs of the individual, the answers are presented in a manner that applies to a broad audience. Listen and enjoy learning about the challenges and successes of your endurance peers, and come away with plenty of practical tips to help improve your training and competitive results.

Gentry McGrath, 48-year-old chiropractor asks about the confusing messages one gets listening to the various podcasts with the often differing theories of how best to train. [00:00:55] 

Chad asks can running strides be added throughout the aerobic base building period? [00:10:33] 

Matthew asks what are signs of overtraining? [00:14:16] 

With reactions to food and training varying between individuals, doesn't it make you question the universal application of the MAF formula? [00:19:49] 

Marco ran the Paris marathon. It was pretty easy up to kilometer 32 and then the last 10K it was harder. What happened? I have plateaued at my MAF heart rate. Shall I try to add 5 beats? [00:25:46] 

The body responds really well and the mind responds well to epic over-distance training sessions. [00:33:47] 

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